19 Responses to “Why Did Peter Deny Jesus?”

  1. John G says:

    The last 2 paragraphs said: “…With the power of the Holy Spirit, Peter rose to preeminence on the Day of Pentecost and was used powerfully by God to convert others. He was no longer confused, but he understood that this was the promised power from God. He was no longer afraid. He no longer lacked faith.

    The details and stories given in the Bible are there not only to inform but to change lives by their examples, good or bad (1Co 10:1-6; 1Pe 2:21; 1Co 11:1). The real question, then, is whether or not you and I are using the power of the Holy Spirit to allow God to change our lives in a similar manner…”

    How does one use the power of God’s Spirit? Does one use one or more of the 5 senses to use something of God” The examples given show how God used individuals, so perhaps the real question should be rephrased to say:

    “…The real question, then, is whether or not God is using the power of the Holy Spirit to allow Him to change our lives in a similar manner…”

    Isn’t it God who grants one repentance? There are verses to show God grants repentance: God does it! For example:

    Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    God will not be waiting for any Gentiles, any human being, to use His Spirit. I almost hate to think this, but his world would probably be in a worse mess if human beings were allowed to use (misuse) any of God’s power. Why would God do such a thing, when humans Jeremiah says cannot ever direct their own steps? And what about that heart of man in Jeremiah 17:9?

    It appears God better do something if good changes, fruit is to be borne. One can’t get good fruit from an evil tree…and vice-versa. If people lack God’s Spirit, then they are none of His (Romans 8:9), etc.

    Faith? There are verses to show God gives one that fruit by measure/proportion, and that it is not dependent upon us using God’s power:

    rOMANS 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God HATH DEALT to every man the MEASURE of faith.
    :6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is GIVEN TO us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the PROPORTION of faith;
    Even Christ didn’t clain to be “good,” but gave all glory to His Father for the works the Father did in His life:

    “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:10

    So, why was “good” performed at times in Moses’ life? Peter’s life? They had a lot of help. We see what happens when the power of God isn’t being used by God in their lives. Peter fled. Same thing happened to Elijah when he fled after slaying hundreds of people. The power of God’s Spirit wasn’t there to make them stand their ground.

    When we observe good works, good fruits, in people’s lives, if it isn’t “very good” human nature (Genesis 1:31) working, which also came from God, then perhaps we may want to consider the following words from Christ:

    “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 5:16

    That verse does not say: “”Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify YOU.”

    John

    • John D says:

      John G wrote: “How does one use the power of God’s Spirit?”

      Frankly, if you don’t know, then I question whether or not you are truly saved.

      “14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
      “15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
      “16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
      “17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
      ~ Jn 14:14-17

      Notice, we are to “ask”, “love”, “keep [Christ's] commandments”, and receive the Holy Spirit who will empower us to do these things.

      “26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

      It says the Holy Spirit will teach us all things, not that it will tie us all up and pull the strings for us. It reminds us of what is right, and we have the freedom to choose to do so or not.

      You wrote: “The examples given show how God used individuals, so perhaps the real question should be rephrased to say:

      “’…The real question, then, is whether or not God is using the power of the Holy Spirit to allow Him to change our lives in a similar manner…’”

      I stand by what I wrote. Your wording makes no sense. You are saying that God allows God to change our lives, which is just gibberish. God does not try to force us to change if we flat out refuse. At most, He will arrange circumstances to allow us to see the folly of our ways. Free will is not taken from us. If so, then this whole thing called life is pointless, meaningless and without purpose.

      We can prevent God from working fully in our lives. We can even frustrate it to the point where we are spiritually choked like the seed sown among weeds. We can frustrate it by not allowing it to take root in our lives like the stony ground.

      Do you not believe your own Bible?

      “14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
      “15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
      “16 Rejoice evermore.
      “17 Pray without ceasing.
      “18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
      “19 Quench not the Spirit.”
      ~ 1Th 5:14-19

      We have free will, and it can quench the Spirit. How? By going contrary to what he is writing about! If we do not build others up, be patient towards them, render evil for evil, do not rejoice, stop praying and be ungrateful, then we will quench the Spirit.

      “Isn’t it God who grants one repentance? There are verses to show God grants repentance: God does it!”

      That does not mean He forces it down anyone’s throat. He will punish, and He will put down rebellion, as He did in the Flood and in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ will do so again at His return. However, whom of those repented?

      According to your point of view, in fact, Sodom and Gomorrah should have never occurred. It shows a cruel God to punish people when all He had to do was to flip a light switch and cause them to repent.

      You wrote: “That verse does not say: ‘”Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify YOU.’”

      Which has nothing to do with it whatsoever. It is plucking the verse out of context to try to make your point.

      In the end, your view of God is not a God of love or of justice.

  2. John G says:

    John D,

    How does one use the power of God’s Spirit? You have not shown how we do that. The verses you quoted are true, but they don’t explain how one uses that power, which is of God, who uses it. Asking and being empowered by God’s Spirit does not equate to anyone using that Spirit or, for that matter, using the power of that Spirit.

    For example, we also know this:

    “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” 2 Corinthians 4:7

    That power of God’s Spirit is “in” us doing something by God’s will and purpose. The excellency of the power is of God, and…………..not of us.

    If one has God’s Spirit, it is not something that one can just get and use…even if asking for it. If so, then how is that done?

    Here’s another verse:

    “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” 2 Timothy 1:7

    God gives that spirit, and along with that Spirit comes that fear (which is the beginning of wisdom, etc.; is it not?), power, love and a sound mind. If God does not give all of that, then how will one have them qualities? I imagine that over time billions of people have asked for God’s Spirit (well, maybe I should say millions? 100(s) of 1000(s)?) That is no guarantee that asking is sufficient. Again, how does one use that spiritual “whatever” power? God knows how to use it, and He does use it. It is “of God.” Not something of self to use any way we think is “good” or right.

    You may quote me the following true verse:

    “The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” Romans 13:12

    And you can quote Ephesians 6 speaking about that armour, but again, if God, by His Spirit, does not provide that armour and put it on us, then how do we do it? I believe God just does it. He does His will by His Spirit, by His power. For example, He accomplished the following and does not leave anything up to the individual:

    2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED BY the Holy Ghost.

    That is what guided and led Jesus Christ while He was on earth. For example:

    “Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.” Matthew 4:1

    God’s Spirit led Him. Christ didn’t figure it all out on His own and know what to do. He was led.

    “And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,” Luke 4:1

    Jesus was led by the Spirit, and God will also accomplish the following with those other sons He has/is creating:

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    :13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    God just does that. He gives that power and accomplishes His will…it’s not the will of the flesh, or the will of man.

    It’s going to end up good…perfect, but God’s way and by God’s Spirit; otherwise, why would there be such a thing as God’s Spirit needed to dwell within human beings.

    Just asking for God’s Spirit and power does not make it happen for people, but when God gives it it will accomplish God’s will within His Plan of Salvation. God knows how to use that Spirit, the power of that Spirit; we do not.

    So far, Christ was the only human being to perfectly keep, fulfill, God’s law and it was by God’s Spirit; otherwise, Christ would never have done that. There is a lot more to what is really going on and there is a reason you and I, even with God’s Spirit dwelling within, can not and will not do what Jesus Christ did as a human being and perfectly keep God’s law. You know that….and so do I. Yet, God is accomplishing His will. A human being can perfectly keep God’s law. God proved that via Jesus Christ’s life. That’s the example, the proof, the standard that it can be done. You strive as much as you want, but you can’t do it and there are reasons why…and God is going to receive all of the glory for working it all out…His way…and it will be by grace, His grace.

    John D, we will have to agree to disagree on this one, but thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject…although you may continue to question whether I am truly saved or not…

    John

    • John D says:

      More to the point, we obviously do not serve the same God. I’m sorry, but it is the truth. I serve the God Who allowed Adam and Eve to have free will, and even allowed them to sin and get kicked out of a perfect environment, simply because that’s what they chose. I do not serve a god who could have pulled a puppet string and instantaneously changed them so that they would have not sinned but instead chose not to do so and allow mankind to suffer for thousands of years and even die needlessly. That is exactly what you are positing in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

      As far as using the Holy Spirit, you can close your eyes all you want, but I already stated it. You either listen to the Holy Spirit or not. You either accept it or not. You either tap into it, build it, fuel it and make it grow, or you let it die. It won’t be stagnant, that’s for sure, and it won’t overcome your bad attitude without you yourself repenting first.

      That’s the whole reason the entire world isn’t being called now. If what you claim was true, then “god” would once again be needlessly putting human beings through suffering and misery for no cause at all. That’s not God’s character; that’s Satan’s.

      As HWA used to say, there is one thing that God cannot instantaneously by divine fiat create: Perfect godly character.

  3. Big Red Big Red says:

    John D answered the question. There might be problem in how John G framed it. “How do you get and use the Holy Spirit?”

    In the first place, you can’t ‘get’ the Holy Spirit. God has to give it to you. In the second place, you can’t ‘use’ Holy Spirit. It’s not some kind of power switch that you can simply manipulate. You have to submit to the Holy Spirit as it works in you.

    God gives you the Holy Spirit. It opens your mind to understanding the Bible, certain things about your life, and it brings God’s instructions into memory during everyday life. And you submit to the Holy Spirit as it happens. You obey God’s instruction right here, right now, in this little moment of time. And in doing so, you are being LED BY the Holy Spirit, not ‘using’ it.

    What if a situation or temptation is too tough to handle? God will not let you down. Go boldly to the throne of grace in the time of need. God knows the very secrets of your inner heart. If you’re honest and serious about being led by the Spirit, He will come to your rescue and get the victory for you. Nothing can stop God.

  4. John G says:

    Big Red,

    You have answreplied explaning why you believe one can’t get God’s Holy Spirit, nor use it and yes, God will provide the victory. God just isn’t working with most at this time. I have absolute confidence in the following verses and their fulfillment in the lives God works with by the power of His Spirit:

    “Being confident of this very thing, that HE which hath BEGUN a good work IN you WILL PERFORM IT until the day of Jesus Christ:” Phil 1:6

    “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein HE HATH MADE us ACCEPTED in the beloved.” Ephesians 1:6

    “For it is God which WORKETH IN you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE.” Phil 2:13

    God does it! He does all of that for all of those Firstfruits that become sealed by His Spirit, but what about the rest of mankind? God is a God of love, but it is His will that we learn to hate evil. It’s all just part of an educational process. What about “the rest?”

    :19 “To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING the world unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” 2 Corinthians 5:19

    If it isn’t God’s will to impute trespases to this world, then why do so many do it? Before all is said and done God will save all Israel, all humanity, the world’s inhabitants, and then take and destroy Satan and his devils, which were also created for a purpose. It’s a plan that God is working out…His way.

    “For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.” Psalm 74:12

    No wonder Jesus Christ expressed confidence it the following!

    “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he SHALL BE SAVED, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 10:9

    :28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    :29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    When God starts something He will finish or complete it with His sheep; He just isn’t working with most at this time. He’ll pick them up later after the second resurrection occurs. How do we know?

    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    God will not forget those “other sheep.” God does love all of us, but He must work His Plan. It’s going to turn out “very good.” Most lack confidence to believe that at this time and that’s fine. Time will tell. I believe that victory is for all human beings, but there are things to be accomplished and time that must elapse. God isn’t finished. We’re all works in progress to one degree or another.

    For example, before all is said and done, God will give A MEASURE OF His FAITH, part of the fruit of His Spirit, to every man:

    3 “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith.” Romans 12:3

    He just isn’t doing that for most at this time; God can’t lie!

    God intends to fulfill the following also:

    Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.

    But not now………and when God does that all glory, praise and honor will not go to every man, but to the Great God who made that all possible to begin with. How did God know that there was going to be a Lamb slain from beginning of the world? It’s a Plan, a long-range Plan and God knows what He is doing.

    Adam and Eve, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah…billions of human beings? They will live again. They experienced evil and many learned to hate it. Don’t hate people. Don’t even hate Satan and his devils. God has more work to accomplish, finish, complete. God left us examples to learn from, but He isn’t done yet.

    Again, time will tell…and all will eventually admit that God is love…and all will yet witness how God will take and destroy Satan and his angels…as He said He would.

    John

  5. John D says:

    @John G & Big Red: I believe that submitting to the Holy Spirit and carrying out the actions it prompts you to do is using the Holy Spirit.

    To “use” something does not necessarily mean an action like hammering a nail. Looking into a mirror is using the mirror. It takes very little effort, and the mirror does most of the work. However, one has to hold it at the right angle for it to do its job.

    Bible Study and the promptings of the Holy Spirit can tell you that lust is wrong, but if you don’t make the effort to put lust out of your heart and mind, all the promptings in the world will do you no good.

    Israel is supposed to be our example of what not to do. They grumbled, complained, murmured and even rebelled. However, God over and over again urged them to choose a different way. They chose to not obey.

    Now, granted they did not have the Holy Spirit. However, they are still given as an example. Even Moses lost control and sinned, and that barred him and Aaron from entering the Promised Land. The Holy Spirit did not do that to him; he made a choice, and it was a very bad choice in this case.

    In fact, Moses’ example should be quite sobering. If a man of his spiritual stature can be kept from the physical Promised Land, then what should that tell us about the spiritual Promised Land?

    Jesus promised “power” to His disciples (Ac 1:8). Is it just supposed to sit there and nothing come of it? Electricity is great stuff, but if it isn’t channeled to the right places in the right amounts, things don’t go well. The electricity does all the work, but we still “use” electricity.

    Like streams of water, the Holy Spirit is definitely meant to be used. It should water the garden of the good soil and bring forth fruit. It should bring forth love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. There are other gifts that may be bestowed or enhanced through it as well (as was in the case of Bezaleel and his workmanship, or King David and his poetry). We can use and multiply these talents, or we can just plant them in the ground, expecting them to do the work for us, and when Christ returns we will give Him what was His in the first place.

    There are many exhortations and outright warnings in the Bible to make the right choices and do the right things. We will be held accountable. I guarantee it. We will be individually judged for what we did or did not do with the resources given us, and that includes the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    We are His creation, so there is nothing we can do that is greater than He Who made us. However, He has given us a job to do, and He will only reward those who carry it out through the very end. Since we made none of this ourselves, we don’t get the credit for it, cannot get the credit for it and owe it all to Him. If we truly are grateful, however, we will do what ever He tells us we must do, and we will do it willingly.

    To sit back and expect Him to do it all for us is an extreme form of ingratitude.

  6. John G says:

    John D,

    You conclude your post by writing: “…If we truly are grateful, however, we will do what ever He tells us we must do, and we will do it willingly.

    To sit back and expect Him to do it all for us is an extreme form of ingratitude…”

    You may strive to be as grateful as you like, but that won’t “cut it” with God, who knows that you cannot choose to be sinless and choose to make your decision about that stick.

    The following verses show why this world cannot choose to willingly do God’s will:

    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is NOT SUBJECT TO the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.” Romans 8:7

    “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKETH IN the children of disobedience:” Ephesians 2:2

    In addition to those two reasons (and there are others that could be added – e.g. Romans 8:20; Jeremiah 10:23, 17:9; Genesis 6:5, etc.) here is another reason as to why ancient physical Israel could not choose to willingly do God’s will and make their decision stick:

    “Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.” Deuteronomy 29:4

    Where is the “choice” in that if God doesn’t provide the wherewithall to do it?

    Now, why can’t you and I make that simple choice to willingly obey God and do His will and make our choice stick….even if God’s Spirit dwells within us?

    It’s because of what’s in the following verse (don’t neglect the verses above as it all fits together in a complimentary way):

    “Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?” James 4:5

    You did write: “…Bible Study and the promptings of the Holy Spirit can tell you that lust is wrong, but if you don’t make the effort to put lust out of your heart and mind, all the promptings in the world will do you no good…”

    You make the effort. If you have God’s Spirit, the help will be there, but it will not always be there and you will still sin, because what God the Father did for Jesus Christ by the power of His Spirit God has not willed to be done in our lives at this time. We are to learn to hate sin and evil and we will have our noses rubbed in it until the day we die and you can’t choose to stop that. I know you try, but I also know we can’t do that.

    Thankfully, God has His plan to reconcile all of mankind and He will do it. We can’t. You know what the conclusion is if we say we have no sin. You cannot get around that.

    I wish it was as easy as you said: “…If we truly are grateful, however, we will do what ever He tells us we must do, and we will do it willingly…”

    Yes, we want that, but life isn’t that way. Sin and evil continue to pop into our lives. Paul told us about that (Romans 7:17, 20-21). Paul wrote that near the end of his life as a long-time Christian and he wasn’t joking.

    And yes, it doesn’t mean we just sit back. If one has God’s Spirit, God had a reason for giving that gift and one cannot sit back. How will those with God’s Spirit behave? Revelation 2-3 tell us how from one period of time to another. God knows what happens when Satan’s spirit is involved by itself and what happens when His Spirit also dwells within, but it differs from one era/congregation to the next (Rev 2-3) and why not? God is building the Bride. Is it any wonder that God could be so accurate in the description of those of His Church in different periods of time (Rev 2-3) and He is going to end up with exactly what He wants. The end result will be a perfect Bride.

    If it ever depended upon any of us in any way, what a messy Bride that would be! But as I often say, time will tell, although Revelation 2-3, and elsewhere in scripture, tell us that God is going to have it His way. He starts it. He will finish it. He will make it acceptable in His sight. His Spirit is very powerful and God knows how to use that power of that Spirit. This world isn’t convinced of that, but after that second resurrection occurs they will be convinced that God really is love…….and worked out His own Plan of Salvation to prove it to us.

    Again, Christ knew that of Himself He could do nothing, but much was accomplished in His life, wasn’t it? God wasn’t limited to just one…

    John

    • John D says:

      John G wrote: “You may strive to be as grateful as you like, but that won’t ‘cut it’ with God”

      Actually, that is the only thing that will cut it with God. Gratitude is the antidote. Lack of it led to Satan’s downfall and the first generation of Israel not going into the Promised Land.

      “Where is the ‘choice’ in that if God doesn’t provide the wherewithall to do it?”

      You are confusing two different things. God breaks the bonds of slavery. This is a world held captive, and it is God Who breaks those bonds and opens the mind — of a few now, and of all later. It is the main reason that God gets all the credit. We cannot break ourselves free.

      However, that alone will not save us. Israel had their bonds broken, and that generation still didn’t make it into the Promised Land. We have to repent and obey. Repent means to do a 180. It requires a willingness to go the other way. It comes even before obedience!

      37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
      38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
      ~Ac 2

      God does His part, and we respond. That’s not the end of the story, though. We must grow spiritually. We must feed on the Word, stir up the gift of the Holy Spirit, stay in contact with God and endeavor to rid ourselves of our old way of life. God gives us the power, but we must tap into it.

      You contradict yourself more ways than I can count: “You make the effort….. We are to learn to hate sin … I wish it was as easy as you said… And yes, it doesn’t mean we just sit back.”

      “Effort” means you must do something. That’s another way of saying that God doesn’t do it all for us. I am amazed you cannot see your own contradictions.

      “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” ~ Jas 1:22

      “(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” ~ Ro 2:13

      “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” ~ Mt 7:24

      It isn’t enough to just do stuff, either. That is not “fruit”. Booklets are not fruit. Telecasts are not fruit. Casting out demons are not fruit. Preaching in His name is not fruit.

      21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
      22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
      23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
      ~ Mt 7:21-23

      We must put iniquity out of our lives! This is a warning from Jesus Himself. He is telling us what one of our responsibilities is.

  7. John G says:

    John D,

    You concluded with saying: “…We must put iniquity out of our lives! This is a warning from Jesus Himself. He is telling us what one of our responsibilities is….”

    Again, how do you put iniquity out of your life? If your hand offends and iniquity is committed, do you cut it off? If your right eye offends and iniquity is committed, do you pluck it out?

    How do you put iniquity out?

    I can read lots of places in the Bible where God will deal with iniquity, but us? How do we do it and make it stick in our lives daily for the rest of our lives?

    Is it really you that do it, or is God more involved than we give Him credit for? If you choose to put iniquity out of your life, can you then say you have no sin? Can you do that?

    You say “we must tap into it:” God’s power, the power of God’s Spirit. How do you know when you’re tapped? Is it when you no longer commit that iniquity for the remainder of your life?

    Here is one example of what God plans to about all of the iniquities for all flesh, but God will do it in His time in accordance with His perfect Plan of Salvation:

    Psalm 65:1 Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
    2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

    That’s all flesh, and that isn’t happening today, is it?

    3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.

    Who is getting credit for purging away those iniquities there? Is that verse true, or not? Will God do it? He hasn’t done it for all flesh yet, but He says He shall.

    If God’s Spirit dwells within one, then that Spirit of God overcomes and overwhelms that other spirit mentioned in verses like Ephesians 2:2, James 4:5, etc., but not totally like was done in Christ’s life. We will learn to hate evil. Evil and sin will occur in us until the day we die.

    Look at this world controlled by Satan. It’s obviously full of sin and evil of all kinds, and it’s because “very good” human nature (Gen 1:31) is not in control. Satan’s spirit, like leaven, permeates this world today and dwells in all flesh.

    Not so, God’s Spirit, b/c later that Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh. But, as the verse says above, it is God who will purge away inquities and the cause of same.

    Here’s one more verse concerning God’s involvement:

    “Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name’s sake.” Psalm 79:9

    Well, it appears David was inspired to know that if iniquities or sins are going to go away they would need to be purged away by God.

    Satan has lots of power and that thing works his will in our lives.
    “And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are TAKEN CAPTIVE BY HIM at HIS WILL.” 2 Tim 2:6

    Humans, by comparison, have virtually no power. God has all power. These are some of the things we all will learn in time.

    As I’ve said, it’s going to come out good, “very good,” when God completes His work in our lives. We’re “clay.” Ever see “clay” move itself, mold itself…do anything of and by itself? Christ said of Himself He could do nothing.

    If iniquities are purged out of our lives, it can only happen one way and that is by God doing it. Human beings of and by themselves aren’t very successful.

    Satan and his devils, the cause of sin (“He that COMMITTETH SIN is OF THE DEVIL…” I John 3:8) in our lives will eventually be taken and destroyed. Humans, all flesh, have an inheritance, but why?

    “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:11

    The meek will inherit this earth. Others will inherit all things. No human will be short-changed. God does love all of us, but He must work out His Plan of Salvation for all humanity, and then take and destroy Satan and his angels, who were made to be taken and destroyed. Not so, those to become God’s children.

    John D, I’m looking forward to having all iniquities purged out of my life. I can of myself do nothing and I believe God will do it all when it pleases Him to do so. God already proved that with one human being.

    You don’t believe God can do that, but needs some “help,” some something from you and all humanity, from you somehow, some way to “put iniquity out of your life.”

    And you are welcome to continue to believe as you do, and time will tell… It is interesting that we both want the same end result, and it will happen, but you believe you have a part in that. It’s a big burden upon you and a huge responsibility to put on anyone.

    If God does not do as He has said to purge away our iniquities, then I ask: who will? I know I can’t and I won’t, but I believe God will do it.

    These are my last words on this thread. Make it a great day. I don’t know where you live, but I live in the 2013 Blizzard area where the snow depth was 24 inches and the white snow makes everything look more beautiful…

    John

    • John D says:

      John G wrote: “How do you put iniquity out?”

      The same way you put leaven out of your home. Of course, you won’t understand that, as you refuse to.

      You wrote: “You don’t believe God can do that, but needs some ‘help,’ some something from you and all humanity, from you somehow, some way to ‘put iniquity out of your life.'”

      Actually, He doesn’t “need” us — at all! Twisting my words won’t earn you any points here, and I cannot let it go without countering such a low tactic. We are not helping God at all. That would assume He needs us to begin with. However, God will refuse to help those who will not make the attempt to help themselves.

      Why? Because we are to become like Him! He wants children, not robots. He already has angels. He wants a family, and that requires a willingness and a heart that goes far beyond what angels are capable of. When we are spirit beings with the powers associated with them, we must be able to act responsibly.

      We are required to do our part, and to ask God for help with what we cannot do. To say we get any credit for it is to ignore the fact that He created us to begin with. That zeroes out any credit we might take, as all resources we have including life itself come from God.

  8. John G says:

    Well, John D, I didn’t want to write anymore on this thread, but I’ve reconsidered and will make one more comment.

    You wrote: “…The same way you put leaven out of your home. Of course, you won’t understand that, as you refuse to…”

    How do you know that to be true? Leaven does go out of my home. I observe the same holydays you do, including God’s Sabbath; however, when it comes to learning a lesson from deleavening one’s home I understand this:

    We will strive to remove all leaven, but neither you nor I will succeed at getting every last crumb out…and that is the point to me. Leaven pictures sin, iniquity. The lesson being: it is God who needs to spiritually deleaven us. We can’t do that and succeed at it. We may strive, but God must do it and that is what deleavening pictures to me.

    We do strive to do the best we can with what we have by what we know. I deleaven my home knowing that it is God must deleaven His Church, deleaven each Firstfruit He seals by His Spirit and eventually deleaven all human beings and God will accomplish that through what He has already done with Christ, who purges us of all sin, and the coming two scheduled resurrections; there will be no third resurrection needed.

    We must agree to disagree, because we both do have different understanding of why God asked up to deleaven our homes. Sin will continue in our lives until the day we die. Deleavening pictures that b/c none of us has ever succeeded at getting all leaven out. Think about it. Some of them crumbs, still leaven, will not be removed, but will remain hidden in our homes…deep in some cracks, etc.

    And where there is sin, there is that other spirit: Satan!

    “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning…” I John 3:8

    It is God who will eventually purge out all leaven, sin, Satan and his angels from each of our lives…

    That’s the lesson of deleavening for me…again, make it a great day!

    John

    • John D says:

      John G wrote: “How do you know that to be true? Leaven does go out of my home.”

      No, you refuse to understand, just as you are reading into what I wrote about you understanding. Putting out the leaven is an example of what you and I do

      “We will strive… We may strive… We do strive … I deleaven my home… ”

      See? It does take effort! God does not do it all because He expects you to do what you can!

  9. Andrew says:

    As an observer to this debate, it strikes me that for the most part you two are arguing semantics more than anything. While my position and understanding is much more in line with John D’s as opposed to John G’s, I still at least see the same comments being made.

    The essence of that comment being: man cannot hope to achieve what they want on their own and it is only by God’s power, through the Holy Spirit, that we can even hope to attempt it and have any success.

    If we liken overcoming iniquity to jumping a deep chasm, far too wide to ourselves, God still wants to see us take that running leap and jump. He’ll help us to the other side, but if we refuse to jump He’ll let us stay exactly where we are. It’s a marriage of man’s repentant desire, the effort to do better (even knowing in this life achieving 100% perfection is impossible and yet it is still our goal), and God’s power enabling and helping us get to where we need to be.

    And that’s the message I’m seeing in both John D’s and John G’s comments. John G may take a more passive approach in his undestanding, believing that man has no choice in the matter (something that is incorrect as we were given choice and how can many be called but few chosen if choice were not still a major aspect of our salvation), but I don’t see an advocation of “Once saved always saved” or “there is no need to repent and no need to obey.” So don’t both views of understanding bring you both to the same end of salvation?

    Just an observation on my part here.

    • John D says:

      @Andrew: In all honesty, I don’t view it as a matter of semantics when someone keeps contradicting themselves over and over again. Words have meaning. They convey ideas, and ideas have consequences. If you state something that is not true, then everything else you say will be skewed.

      The Protestant world views salvation as “Come as I am.” I was introduced to Baptist theology at a young age. They really do believe that God does it all for you. That’s how they come up with some pretty messed up notions that allow people to sin however they want and as openly as they want, and they can still claim to be “saved” or “born again”. For example, most of them claim drinking is a sin, yet Thursday nights would often see a third of the congregation in one bar or another.

      So, when someone says, “God does it all,” that will be the frame of reference that most will look at it, no matter what the intent is.

  10. John G says:

    Hi John D,

    I’ll provide another comment. You wrote: “…See? It does take effort! God does not do it all because He expects you to do what you can!…”

    Well, did I not in an earlier post cite Phil 2:13?

    “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

    Effort is evident because God, by His Spirit, works in His sealed Firstfruits, Christians! How does God do it? He provides “…both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

    So, yes, you will see the effort…thanks to God’s working it out. I observe God’s Sabbath because of what God’s Spirit does in my life; otherwise, I would not observe it as I do.

    Another example of God causing something to happen is John 6:44

    “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    Notice the word “draw!” God draws a person and it like a literal dragging, which you won’t agree with b/c you want self to have that free choice/will when it comes to salvation.

    If it weren’t for God doing what He does by the power of His Spirit there would be no Church: God’s Church. None just go out and do good, no, not one. Human beings can’t do God’s will without a lot of help by God through His Spirit.

    God told us why Israel could not and would not do God’s will:

    “Yet the LORD hath NOT GIVEN you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.” Deut 29:4

    And Moses was told that before Israel was told to “choose” anything. God knew they couldn’t do it, and left us Israel’s example to prove it.

    Romans 8:7 means exactly what it says:

    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Romans 8:7

    That’s your mind. That’s my mind. That’s mankind’s mind. It’s even Satan’s mind. It’s God’s Spirit that makes that human mind change. Satan cannot cease from sin.

    If people could just make a simple choice to obey God, do His will, then why would Christ have to be a sacrifice to purge sins away? Just leave it up to our choices. God knows we won’t choose Him, and I’ve already explained why. Another spirit is actively involved in all of our lives…just as it was back in the days of ancient physical Israel.

    You may not like this, since you did bring up the word “robot” in an earlier comment, but Jesus Christ was a pawn, the perfect Pawn, not a robot, of His Father and He was that way because of what the Father did by the power of His Spirit regarding Christ. He always perfectly did the Father’s will, which you and I will not do in this life. God only needed one to do that and He provided that, yet God does have a way of making the rest of us that way when He’s ready to do that.

    And with the effort we put out, and all of the coices you make, the following will remain true:

    “That no flesh should glory in his presence.” 1 Cor 1:29

    I believe the following verse is a done-deal verse as far as God is concerned:

    “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.’ 2 Cor 5:19

    But it is God who really must do that reconciling. God does not impose His law on this world run and controlled by Satan today. A day is coming when Satan will no longer be able to exercise that control over “very good” human nature. Satan especially knows his time will be short once that thing is allowed out of the bottomless pit. Yes, it is getting shorter as that thing will enter that pit, but what a day it will be when that thing comes out of that pit in the future…still this is all part of a perfect Plan God is working out (Psalm 74:12).

    Big Red and Andy see our similarities and differences in thinking. I’m enjoying the path I’m on, and I believe you enjoy the path you are on, which again leaves us with agreeing to disagree. It’s going to come out nice for all human beings, which will be followed by the destruction of Satan and his angels. Time will tell…

    John

    • John D says:

      John G wrote: “If people could just make a simple choice to obey God, do His will, then why would Christ have to be a sacrifice to purge sins away? Just leave it up to our choices. God knows we won’t choose Him, and I’ve already explained why.”

      First off, you know not everyone’s minds are opened. That is why Christ died. He paid the penalty for sin, both now and in the future. Most of the world is still held captive, but they will have their minds opened, and then they will have a choice!

      “You may not like this, since you did bring up the word ‘robot’ in an earlier comment, but Jesus Christ was a pawn, the perfect Pawn, not a robot, of His Father and He was that way because of what the Father did by the power of His Spirit regarding Christ.”

      No, Christ was God in the flesh. He willingly submitted to the Father. Anything else is bordering on blasphemy. He said, “Thy will be done” rather than try to usurp the Father’s authority.

      I may regret asking, but do you think Lucifer had no choice as to whether or not to sin? Because if not, then God created evil, and He will perpetuate that evil by punishing someone who was not at fault when it is all said and done.

  11. John G says:

    John D,

    You wrote: “…No, Christ was God in the flesh…”

    Are you saying that Christ was not like us: flesh, blood and bone? Do you really believe that? Isn’t believing that Christ was “God in the flesh” preaching and believing in “the spirit of antichrist?”

    “And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” 1 John 4:3

    if what you wrote is true, then lots of questions come up. For example, if Christ was God in the flesh, then there’s no way any of us will ever be like Him, is there? If Christ was God in the flesh, then why would God’s Spirit, after His baptism, have to come and dwell within Him? If Christ was God in the flesh, then it would be senseless to tempt Him; wouldn’t that be so?

    We must then conclude that Chrsit is not like us, nor are we like Him, but scripture told us this:

    Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    We are not “God in the flesh,” and Christ was “…made like unto his brethren,” so how can he be “God in the flesh?” Was Christ like us or not? Are we like Christ was when He walked this earth or not?

    Overall, if Christ was “God in the flesh,” how could you ever hope to be like Him?

    A lot of other questions come up if you believe Christ was “God in the flesh.” Here’s some more, for whatever it may be worth:

    Christ said that of Himself He could do nothing? If Christ was “God in the flesh,” how could He say that and mean it? Would God say that of Himself: that He could do nothing?

    Christ said there was none good but one and that was His God: the Father. If Christ was “God in the flesh,” then why didn’t Christ tell us that there was none good except God the Father……..and Himself?

    Satan and his angels were made to be taken and destroyed, so their evil, and their works, and the sins they cause will not be perpetuated. They are used in God’s Plan of Salvation to save all humanity, and subsequently be taken and be destroyed.

    Paul told us the truth when He told us about God’s reconciliation of humanity:

    “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;” 2 Corinthians 5:19

    If God does not do that, then there will be no reconciliation to God.

    I suppose you could say that one reason for Peter denying Christ (subject of this thread) like he did was because he was certainly not “God in the flesh” during the time those denials occurred, but even with God’s Spirit dwelling within Paul this was said by him:

    “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” Romans 7:18

    And if that was true of Paul, wouldn’t that also be true of us? I believe Christ, to be like us, had something in His flesh also…that same spirit (James 4:5) that is within each of us…and if true, then Christ could come to no other conclusion but that:

    Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

    Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

    John

    • John D says:

      Just like you quoted: “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”. He came from the Father, and He said so many times.

      “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” ~ Mt 1:23

      “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” ~ Jn 1:1

      Simply speaking, Jesus was God and is God, that is what the Bible says, and you don’t believe even that, then you are no Christian — by definition. Period.

      I’m done with this silly conversation.